I just wanted to officially announce that I am withdrawing support for the Forge and will begin the process of removing its use from Better Than Wolves.
While I still believe in the vision behind the Forge, creative differences with a key team member that run counter to the collaborative spirit of this project, and the increasingly invasive nature of the changes made by the API to the Minecraft code-base, have resulted in a situation that I am not at all comfortable with.
During the transition, I will likely be distributing a heavily modified and trimmed-down version of the Forge with Better Than Wolves for MC 1.0, along with the source for those changes as per the Forge licensing agreement. With successive releases, I'll be removing remaining dependencies until the mod is completely detached from the API.
My apologies in advance for the incompatibilities that this will inevitably cause with your mods. It is a very unfortunate situation from which I believe it is simply best to extricate myself for my own peace of mind.
In order to discover the details, one must read the topic "Considering dropping Forge" on the Better Than Wolves Forum. It's not pretty.
FlowerChild quickly gets to the heart of the matter:
-I can't stand working with Eloraam.
I have nothing but respect for SpaceToad, but Eloraam's ever increasing trend of ripping-off functionality from other major Forge mods, and dominating the development of what was supposed to be a communal API to suit her own development agenda, turning it into this bloated mass that only she's able to maintain, is just not something I have any desire to collaborate with.
She's an extremely talented programmer, and I used to get along with her quite well, but a month or two ago (around the time she released Flax and Pipes in RP), I realized I couldn't stand it anymore and largely dropped out of development of the Forge. Considering she's now the primary developer on the API, and I don't even want to talk to her anymore, leaving BTW dependent on her is not something I'm at all comfortable with.
How does one drop out of development when you were never involved to begin with? No FlowerChild commits here. Or here. Or here. (Links via
FlowerChild continues in a subsequent post:
Gilberreke wrote:^^^^ This ^^^^
It is a technical thing too, a lot of recent Forge edits have become largely pervasive to the game and compatibility with other mods, just for the sake of having complex RedPower features.
She really has no sense of moderation when it comes to these things and routinely rewrites large portions of vMC to get the features she desires, which also leads to her being the only person that knows how the whole thing works, and whom is capable of maintaining it.
We got into big arguments about that when the Forge first came together, but I eventually conceded, which in retrospect, was a huge mistake.
He continues:
Man, there's implementing a certain kind of functionality, then there's just whole-sale copying of an idea right down to the way something looks.
...I fail to see any need whatsoever to parrot the implementation details of other mods, ESPECIALLY those whose authors you are supposedly collaborating with for the good of the overall community.
There's a line there man, and while it may be blurry, as I said, I saw a point at which I had no doubt that it had been repeatedly and intentionally crossed.
Highly revealing is this post by FlowerChild:
JRoush wrote:I've said myself, including in this thread, that she's a very talented programmer man. I've never brought that into question.
Eloraam is an exceptionally good programmer. I know this thread is nominally about the Forge, but really it's about her, and I want to put this on record. Even in a group of good programmers, she's uncommonly talented. Her implementations are elegant, effective, and reliable, which is more than I can say for many of the features she ripped off (anyone built a multi-pulley elevator recently?). And yes, she did rip them off. No arguments there.
However, as to whether she's more talented than I am (which seems to be what you're implying), man, there's a lot of variables to that equation and I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess. She makes technical trade-offs that I am not willing to and everybody goes nuts because she's using tile entities for everything and hardly consuming block ids as a result. That's cool and all, and it was a very smart move given the trade-offs she's willing to make, but is that better?
She's also willing to spend a huge amount of time on things that I am simply not willing to. Placement code for sub-blocks for example. Again, what's better in that? I don't think that the sub-block placement I have going is optimal, but I think there are far more important things to work on in the mod, so I move onto those.
She's also willing to make far more extensive and invasive changes to the MC code-base than I'm willing to in order to get the functionality she wants. The number of base-class mods that RP now requires makes BTW pale by comparison, with the difference being that all of them are hidden in the Forge in her case. Again, which approach is better in that is highly questionable.
I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess as to who the better programmer is man, and honestly, I stopped caring about programmer cock-fights a good 15 to 20 years ago.
What I will say is this though:
If you log into an SMP server and spend a few hours building a castle, only to log back on the next day to find someone has built one twice as big next to yours overnight, you're going to say "wtf"? So, you decide to wander off into the wilderness and work on a nice circular tower, spending a few more hours on it. The next day, you log on, and find someone has built a tower identical in shape but twice as big, again, right next to yours. So, you start getting pissed.
This keeps happening and it becomes apparent that someone is intentionally copying your creations but always doing them "bigger! better! more powerful!".
Is this fun? How long before you say "fuck this" and quit the server? [My emphasis]
I'll interject here that he admits to caring about programmer "cock-fights" in the past, and despite his statement to the contrary, he still cares now. Especially when he loses the "cock-fight" to a woman.
FlowerChild continues:
I personally don't think it's coincidental that she signed onto the Forge and the next thing you know she's putting in functionality that attempts to outdo the features of the primary mods she's supposedly collaborating with, and intentionally attempting to draw comparisons between them by putting in obvious similarities. So far, that's actually *all* I've seen her do without one original idea appearing in her mod.
It's cheap, it's aggravating, it runs counter to a collaborative spirit, it's overly competitive, derivative, uncreative, and just plain sad. To me, it seems she's making every attempt to piss off the people she's working with through this kind of passive-aggressive nonsense (whereas I'm just straight out aggressive) and has succeeded admirably in that regard.
More FlowerChild:
If the update to 1.8 was any indication, I get the impression that it also won't be updated until she's ready with a 1.0 release of her own mod putting me in the position of twiddling my thumbs until that happens, and of course guaranteeing that hers will always be the first mod to update out of the other Forge mods when a new release of MC comes out (again, competition).
Version 1.2.0 of Forge for Minecraft 1.0.0 was released today [Nov. 30]. RedPower 2 won't be ready for awhile. [Edit: RP2pr4 was released on Dec. 5.]
And finally FlowerChild says this:
Seriously man, my perception of it is that she's selectively going after key features in the other "big" Forge mods with the intent of making them obsolete so her big uber-mod will be the only one around and because the features she's making now are intended for her eventual commercial product: Minia. Coming out "on top" of the Minecraft mod scene will obviously contribute greatly to the popularity of that game.
I would also say, if she has so many original features planned that people are so excited about, why is she pushing out release after release of copy-cat features if not to try and establish the kind of dominance I'm talking about above? Why is that her priority? Why not at least space it out with *some* original content if she's got so many ideas planned?
I very much doubt anything anyone would say to me at this point would convince me otherwise and considering that mine is one of those mods that she's trying to "push out", I take that as an act of outright hostility which I refuse to cooperate with. [My emphasis]
So after the lengthy series of personal attacks on Eloraam over a number of posts, we finally learn the real reason behind his withdrawal from Forge: it's about 'coming out "on top" of the Minecraft mod scene.'
Normally I would not have quoted so extensively, but I felt the need to counter my fairly effusive treatment of FlowerChild in my piece Will the Minecraft Forge API help resolve the current modding mess? I think the attacks on Eloraam reflect very poorly on FlowerChild, and as a result I now have a much lower opinion of him.
I still value his work on Better Than Wolves, and also his opinions on Minecraft modding. Another reason I quoted FlowerChild so extensively is that his posts confirm a number of my thoughts, in some cases quite strongly:
- There is competition between at least some Minecraft modders.
- Writing a "dominant" (to use FlowerChild's term) mod could prove lucrative itself, or be a stepping stone to later success.
- Eloraam's RedPower 2 is likely to achieve the kind of "dominance" FlowerChild describes.
- Minia is likely to be a significant successor to Minecraft.
FlowerChild has asserted that Better Than Wolves is a hobby project and there is no profit motive involved.1 But his injection of the concept of mod "dominance" into the discussion indicate that he's given the matter much thought.
His claim to be uninterested in profits might be more credible if his mod was open source. But it's not. Back in October, FlowerChild posted:
But sorry man, I don't give out the source. As the others have said though, I'm working on an API to work with the mod that might make this kind of thing easier in the future.
I'll definitely have functionality in the API to add anvil recipes, so you should have no problem adding something like that.
So while he's unwilling to have Better Than Wolves be reliant on Minecraft Forge, he intends to implement his own API so that other mods can be dependent on his.
The path to mod dominance must have looked easy to FlowerChild, who after all, named his mod "Better Than Wolves" in a direct criticism of Notch's game design skills. And for awhile, while his mod was gaining users and garnering rave reviews, all must have seemed to be going according to plan.
But he hadn't counted on the appearance of a new, more talented competitor.
In conclusion, it appears that FlowerChild's withdrawal from Minecraft Forge is simply a reaction to being outclassed by a competitor.
FlowerChild's personal attacks on Eloraam appear to be motivated by resentment stemming from his realization that RedPower 2, and not Better Than Wolves, will likely become the "dominant" Minecraft mod.
[Update: I have written A statement on Minecraft mods copying features from each other.]
1. The following appears in post #16524 in the Better Than Wolves topic on the official Mindcraft Forum. Since direct links to posts haven't been working correctly on www.minecraftforum.net, here's the relevant text:
Do keep in mind that BTW is a hobby and in no way a product. It's something I do for my own personal recreation, and if an aspect of that process becomes unenjoyable, it will inevitably get the axe. Participating in the Forge has become distinctly unpleasurable and thus runs counter to the continued development of this mod.
Posts
What is Minia?
ReplyDeleteThis is Minia.
ReplyDeleteSee also the comments in this post.
To be fair... If you look at Eloraam's work, the majority of it is just other people's ideas reprogrammed. I'd be pissed off too.
ReplyDeleteWhy isn't FlowerChild mad that MW3 and Battlefield 3 are just copying ideas from DOOM? Same for RPGs, RTSs, MMOs, and any type of game you can think of, they all use patterns and ideas from earlier games.
ReplyDeleteFlowerChild claims to work in the games industry, but he doesn't know this? Yeah, right.
It is stunningly hypocritical for FlowerChild to slander Eloraam for doing what he's paid to do—what the entire games industry has been doing for over thirty years—which is making games that incorporate and evolve proven ideas.
Her "ripped off" ideas aren't even that bad. Flax was added so you could harvest string to make her wool based recipes and not have to slaughter millions of sheep. As for the whole pipes/tubes thing, any industrial- based mod will need some way to transport materials if you want to make factories. Redpower tubes differ significantly in their coding and how they operate with the only thing copied is the recipe layout. Flowerchild is pissed because his frames can only make elevators while eloraams frames, which are nearing completing, will allow revolutionary new mobile designs. Nuff said
ReplyDeletePersonally, i understand FlowerChilds Anger but Elooram STEAL other peoples ideas, but dont get me wrong i love redpower 2 <3 her mod makes so you only really need to install 1 BIG mod, But with forge i becomes possibly to have more. for example the ore dictionary helps out a lot with IC2.
ReplyDeleteFC's attitude has become disgusting to me. It's like, Us Big Men Modder's Here First, You New Modders Get Lost. According to FC, Eloraam must only make new content, and thus necessarily be dependent on the quirks and built-in functionality of Buildcraft and IC. Apparently, even so much as coming up with a power paradigm is verboten since all the exitsting ones, INCLUDING MAGICAL-based ones, have been taken. I call BULLSHIT FC. You are full of your own wolf dung.
ReplyDeleteLet me spell it out for FC: Eloraam has done one tremendous thing NO OTHER MODDER HAS REALLY FOCUSED ON, that makes her mod brilliant. It supplies COMPONENTS from which more complex machines or systems can be built, first with logic components, and now with RP2pr4 tube network components. Look at both IC and BC. There are a lot of Machine Blocks that Do Something, but they don't particularly go together to create a system. Only once you put BC and IC together do you start to really make a system, and it wasn't until Redpower logic and TUBES came along that these systems really began to take off and work correctly. (Yes, a nuclear power plant is a complex system, and it's cool, but IC2 mod-balance is such that it's almost not worth messing with them... at least not until people starting successfully automating heat exchanging with Redpower Logic and Tubes.) Red Power PR5 will take this concept to an even higher level with frames. Yes, FC will continue to WHINE that Eloraam stole an idea from him, though this is truly on the order of a guy building a donkey-cart, and someone else inventing a Mack Truck and zooming on past the poor guy. FC will cry about Eloraam ripping his poorly implemented platforms, when in fact, the level of creativity required to add frames to Minecraft is just stupendous. It's NOT the 'moving blocks' idea that captures the creativity involved. It's the IMPLEMENTATION, FC. It's the tremendous amount of code behind the scenes that FC calls 'bloat' that makes something like Frames in Minecraft possible. Yeah, you have to modify a lot of base classes for this kind of stuff... DUH!
Before BTW went to Forge, I refused to attempt to install it because I was using Forge-compatible mods only, and didn't want the hassle of something that modified base classes and created conflicts with all the Forge mods. I was about to attempt to add it to my list of mods (Block ID's permitting) when this whole thing blew up. Now I'll never bother using it.
Finally, a word about competition. BC needs some, desperately. It is a good mod, but it needed a kick in the pants, and a good re-balancing wouldn't hurt. Same for IC2. These other mods should be motivated to make their mods better in response to a successful challenge. Unfortunately, FC decided to quit the competition and take his ball and go home. That's just sad.
The idea of stealing other peoples work has been used so many times it's unbearable. If Flowerchild was having his ideas taken than somthing would have been done. I personally have no need for BTW because Technic (the creators of which despise flowerchild) does all the same things and does them on a platform that is stable and not a bunch of spaghetti code. That said his withdrawal from forge is a loss. every creative mind and programmer is one more idea made, his technical skills and ego aside he had some legitimately good ideas (the ones that aren't a jab at notch, the guy who made Minecraft to begin with I'll remind you). i just wish we in the first world could even for just once a day not blame each other of something. we could get so much more done. if flower child could just suck up his pride and work as a team with the others on forge than something really great could come out of it.
ReplyDeleteI just found this thread when searching for info on Forge and what the implications would be for making my own mod Forge-compliant. Until today, I'd never heard of Elooram or FlowerChild, so I read this with a blank slate.
ReplyDeleteThe main problem with this rant is that you repeatedly assert you know the "real" mind and motives of FC. And you toss in quite a few insults along the way. You don't like the way FC *acted*. Great, slam him for that all you want. But don't pretend to know what's in his mind. I read everything you quoted at face value, and found myself understanding why - from his *stated* perspective, he withdrew.
You, on the other hand, repudiate his statements and assert you know his "real" motives:
- "despite his statement to the contrary, he still cares now. Especially when he loses the "cock-fight" to a woman."
- "he intends to implement his own API so that other mods can be dependent on his."
- "he hadn't counted on the appearance of a new, more talented competitor."
- "FlowerChild's withdrawal from Minecraft Forge is simply a reaction to being outclassed by a competitor."
- "FlowerChild's personal attacks on Eloraam appear to be motivated by resentment"
So you've called him a liar, sexist, having hidden motives, and being resentful, along with being a sub-par programmer with an inferiority complex. The quotes you use from FC that you cite as personal attacks on Elooram are weak sauce compared to the character assassination in this post.
If this kind is what it means to join the Forge mod "community," I'll pass. I hope you take a few minutes to think about whether this post represents the kind of person you would like to be... or even be around.
Nowhere did I call FC a sub-par programmer, either explicitly or by implication. Just because there's someone that might be a bit better programmer in no way diminishes FC's considerable programming and game design skills.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, as far as I can tell FC invented the Civ-meets-Minecraft genre of tech tree-guided voxel-based builders. One of these days I may even get around to blogging about it.
Now to the implications for making your mod Forge-compliant:
The primary upside is that it's better for your user base, as it will allow your mod to be compatible with a wide range of other mods. Convenience for a mod's users is by far the most important concern.
A secondary reason is that depending on how you read this interview with Jens Bergensten in Gamasutra, mods that use Forge may be more compatible with the forthcoming Minecraft mod API. So using Forge now might result in less work in the future to adapt to the official mod API.
If you opt not to use Forge it's not a big deal since it's going away anyway. Things will change radically with the arrival of the mod API, and user convenience won't depend on Forge.
As for FC: my concern isn't for FC, Eloraam, Forge, or you as a modder. I care about what's best for users of Minecraft mods.
FC took a drastic action that hugely inconvenienced his users, and I didn't buy his stated reasons for doing so. I see no reason to tone down criticism of a modder who so willfully and selfishly screwed the users of his mod while engaging in misdirection by blaming another modder.
Except for a single thread on Reddit where I made the mistake of engaging a troll, I haven't criticized FC anywhere except here. If you don't like my opinions and analysis, then why are you reading my blog?